Sticky situation here regarding boudoir photo shoot with 18 year old girl

bikelawyer wrote: I'm not a pro photographer, just a grandson shooting amateur, but I AM a pro lawyer - in Ohio, 18 is 18 - and unless the person is under some sort of disability turning 18 means the door opens to all the perks, benefits and responsibilities of adulthood... Regardless of whether the brain of the 18, 33 or 55 yr old SHOULD be making decisions, they are legally bound by their decisions...

To me, this is a comfort level thing - the prior posts are good
- confirm age, keep copies
- have a "witness" of YOUR choosing in the room - let her bring whoever she wants.
- treat her like you would treat any other 33, 44, 55 or 66 yr old...
- have her sign a waiver before the shoot and consider some sort of post-shoot document in which she provides feedback on the shoot - just to show that it went well...

If someone wants to hire you, you ALWAYS have the right to say NO Thank You... I often turn down cases/clients based on a gut feeling that something doesn't feel right... or a gut feeling that this person is going to become a major pain the butt... I get to pick who my clients are and if the hair on the back of my neck stands up, or my gut feels weird, I turn them down... NOBODY needs the money THAT bad ...

Steve Magas

Very good information, thanks for sharing this. I have considered all the post here and spoke this over with my wife and just feel I should go with my gut and politely turn this one down.

All the advice here was very appreciated!

Joves wrote:

NikaTraveler wrote:

geoffellis wrote: I dont really know what you mean by the brain isnt fully developed until the mid 20's. You have an adult sized brain by like the age of 10, then its simply a matter of forming new white matter/neural pathways. This is a process that happens most quickly during puberty, but its a life long process. it never stops. Comparing an 18yo to a 30yo is like comparing a 30yo to 60yo. The 18 yo will not have the same experience/wisdom/maturity as the 30 yo. but neither will the 30 yo have the same experience/maturity as a 60yo. That doesnt mean a 30yo is incapable of making informed decisions, any more than an 18yo is.

And when does highschool finish in the US? where im from you are done highschool by the time you are about 16-17. If youre 18 or older and still in highschool it means youve failed a grade or two. an 18yo should be in college or working...

I graduated at 17 because my birthday is in August, but I was always one of the youngest in my classes. 18 is the typical age to graduate here.

As far as my claims about the brain, I learned this because of extensive reading on the latest findings in neuroscience. Here are a couple articles I just looked up that kind of summarize.

"The continuous study uses magnetic resonance imaging to scan 2,000 people’s brains every two years. It has been found that teenage brains have extra synapses in the areas where decision making and risk assessment take place. Most of these synapses are useless and even get in the way of one’s judgment. Eventually, as teenagers become adults the synapses disappear, but the findings imply that many life choices are made before the brain’s decision making center is fully developed."

www.academic.marist.edu/mwwatch/fall05/science1.htm

and:

"Jensen says scientists used to think human brain development was pretty complete by age 10. Or as she puts it, that "a teenage brain is just an adult brain with fewer miles on it."

But it's not. To begin with, she says, a crucial part of the brain — the frontal lobes — are not fully connected. Really."

www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124119468

In short the difference between teens and people in their 30s is NOT just experience gathering and wisdom gleaning. It's biological.

Actually those are false. The reason for 18 year olds being so childish in todays society is that they are treated like children for longer than they should be. When I was 18 my brain was fully developed enough to make my own decisions, hell it was that way when I was 16. I was the oldest in the family and had helped to raise the kids and was working a regular construction job. In the bygone eras kids were married and having their own families at 14 and up. And you want to know what they were twice the adult that many in their twenties are now that I meet. Not everyone is at the same level in life at any given point and time, some of us actually had to be adults before we even finished school age. In this case and every case it is the rule of nurture and nature. By nature we develop as fast as is required to survive life. All of that psysho babble is crap.
So yes if they are 18 I will shoot them.

Show me some sources. Otherwise don't call sound science "crap" without proof. It doesn't mean EVERY teenager HAS to make bad decisions. It's just saying the brain is not as fully developed as we once thought at 18. That doesn't mean you weren't mature. I'm sure you were. But you can't boil down immaturity to how "kids these days" are raised based on your own opinion and observations and pit that against extensive testing, studies and brain scans. This isn't some Freudian conjecture based on observations of behavior, it's hard science. Documented, testable, re-testable.

Everyone develops differently, but an 18 year old is still not a fully developed adult in regards to brain biology, no matter how many anecdotes you have about maturity. There are very mature children as well, doesn't change anything, doesn't negate biological and neurological science.

I know this is kind of off topic and I apologize. I'm just saying, as the OP realized, it's more than just about legalities when considering the decisions of an 18 year old. Chances are she's going to go find another photographer that will do it but at least his conscience is clear. Or perhaps she has time to reconsider. In any case, he's off the hook.

Good choice.

NikaTraveler wrote:

Joves wrote:

NikaTraveler wrote:

geoffellis wrote: I dont really know what you mean by the brain isnt fully developed until the mid 20's. You have an adult sized brain by like the age of 10, then its simply a matter of forming new white matter/neural pathways. This is a process that happens most quickly during puberty, but its a life long process. it never stops. Comparing an 18yo to a 30yo is like comparing a 30yo to 60yo. The 18 yo will not have the same experience/wisdom/maturity as the 30 yo. but neither will the 30 yo have the same experience/maturity as a 60yo. That doesnt mean a 30yo is incapable of making informed decisions, any more than an 18yo is.

And when does highschool finish in the US? where im from you are done highschool by the time you are about 16-17. If youre 18 or older and still in highschool it means youve failed a grade or two. an 18yo should be in college or working...

I graduated at 17 because my birthday is in August, but I was always one of the youngest in my classes. 18 is the typical age to graduate here.

As far as my claims about the brain, I learned this because of extensive reading on the latest findings in neuroscience. Here are a couple articles I just looked up that kind of summarize.

"The continuous study uses magnetic resonance imaging to scan 2,000 people’s brains every two years. It has been found that teenage brains have extra synapses in the areas where decision making and risk assessment take place. Most of these synapses are useless and even get in the way of one’s judgment. Eventually, as teenagers become adults the synapses disappear, but the findings imply that many life choices are made before the brain’s decision making center is fully developed."

www.academic.marist.edu/mwwatch/fall05/science1.htm

and:

"Jensen says scientists used to think human brain development was pretty complete by age 10. Or as she puts it, that "a teenage brain is just an adult brain with fewer miles on it."

But it's not. To begin with, she says, a crucial part of the brain — the frontal lobes — are not fully connected. Really."

www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124119468

In short the difference between teens and people in their 30s is NOT just experience gathering and wisdom gleaning. It's biological.

Actually those are false. The reason for 18 year olds being so childish in todays society is that they are treated like children for longer than they should be. When I was 18 my brain was fully developed enough to make my own decisions, hell it was that way when I was 16. I was the oldest in the family and had helped to raise the kids and was working a regular construction job. In the bygone eras kids were married and having their own families at 14 and up. And you want to know what they were twice the adult that many in their twenties are now that I meet. Not everyone is at the same level in life at any given point and time, some of us actually had to be adults before we even finished school age. In this case and every case it is the rule of nurture and nature. By nature we develop as fast as is required to survive life. All of that psysho babble is crap.
So yes if they are 18 I will shoot them.

Show me some sources. Otherwise don't call sound science "crap" without proof. It doesn't mean EVERY teenager HAS to make bad decisions. It's just saying the brain is not as fully developed as we once thought at 18. That doesn't mean you weren't mature. I'm sure you were. But you can't boil down immaturity to how "kids these days" are raised based on your own opinion and observations and pit that against extensive testing, studies and brain scans. This isn't some Freudian conjecture based on observations of behavior, it's hard science. Documented, testable, re-testable.

Everyone develops differently, but an 18 year old is still not a fully developed adult in regards to brain biology, no matter how many anecdotes you have about maturity. There are very mature children as well, doesn't change anything, doesn't negate biological and neurological science.

I know this is kind of off topic and I apologize. I'm just saying, as the OP realized, it's more than just about legalities when considering the decisions of an 18 year old. Chances are she's going to go find another photographer that will do it but at least his conscience is clear. Or perhaps she has time to reconsider. In any case, he's off the hook.

Good choice.

As long as the debate is well thought out and respectful you have nothing to appologize for.

Society has decided to hold 18 year olds culpable for their decisions. Should we raise that to 25 simply because they arent fully developed? If a 22 year old kills his father do you really think he should be treated as minor simply because his brain and decision making skills havent fully developed? Should it be illegal for a 22 year old to have sexual relations with a 26 year old for the same reasons? Should a 24 year old couple making a sex tape (of themselves) be charged with creating child porn?

The fact is that 18 year olds, and 20 year olds, and 22 year olds... are all capable of making sound decisions. Just because your brain scans and science says the brain hasnt FULLY developed, does not mean that the brain is UNDEVELOPED. The decision making process is present and available.

I do wonder though... if an 18 year old male had asked for some nude modelling to be done... would this conversation have even come up. Some how i dont think so.

Very interesting, I enjoyed the read, Personal opinion is I would have done the shoot with all the safeguards in position, there are no rights or wrongs here, Todd has made his decision based on his gut and that is right for him, as for other debates within this thread remember we are all made differently thats what makes humans so diverse and interesting.

I really don't see the big deal about this. If she is 18, she is legal. Meet up with her and ask for picture ID. I've done photoshoots in the past, where I was the model, when I was 18, 19, 20 and I very much looked under 18. Every photographer asked for photo id and I had no problem giving them a copy of it.

NikaTraveler wrote: The fact that she's still in high school has more weight to me than her "legal" age. I don't get people saying 18 is the same as 30. No it's not. The brain isn't fully developed until mid 20s (why are car rental companies the only people that realize this?) so a "legal adult" is not really a mental adult. So your apprehension IS justified. Laws do not equal morality.

In any case, why does a high school student want boudoir shots and why did someone recommend you to her for that? If you aren't comfortable, doubtful the shots will be stellar, regardless of the legalities. But as others said, a chaperone is a great idea.

Not to be judging. More addressing the general topic. The human body is a beautiful thing and it's her choice what to do with it. But, she's still an adolescent, not an adult.

You be surprised how many teenage/highschool girls want boundoir shots to give to their boyfriend or just to have for themselves. I really don't see a big deal about this. Who cares if she is still in highschool. That shouldn't matter. She is 18, legal adult. He is a photographer. She wants her photos taken. Just do it!

geoffellis wrote: I dont really know what you mean by the brain isnt fully developed until the mid 20's. You have an adult sized brain by like the age of 10, then its simply a matter of forming new white matter/neural pathways. This is a process that happens most quickly during puberty, but its a life long process. it never stops. Comparing an 18yo to a 30yo is like comparing a 30yo to 60yo. The 18 yo will not have the same experience/wisdom/maturity as the 30 yo. but neither will the 30 yo have the same experience/maturity as a 60yo. That doesnt mean a 30yo is incapable of making informed decisions, any more than an 18yo is.

And when does highschool finish in the US? where im from you are done highschool by the time you are about 16-17. If youre 18 or older and still in highschool it means youve failed a grade or two. an 18yo should be in college or working...

Most people in my area are 18 when they graduated. I was. It's very common. Depending on the year of when they were born and when they started school, they could be 17 or even 19 when they graduated and never failed a grade.

crystal wrote: Most people in my area are 18 when they graduated. I was. It's very common. Depending on the year of when they were born and when they started school, they could be 17 or even 19 when they graduated and never failed a grade.

How many grades/levels are there then? I had graduated at Grade 11, and the average age is 16 or 17 depending on birth date. Other parts of the country have 12 grades and would be finishing by 17-18. my life was very messed up though, and i ended up failing 1 grade, and redoing an additional grade... and my graduation ceremony was literally a week after my 19th birthday. It didnt help that i moved from a province that had 11 grades, to a province that had 12 grades, and then back to a province with 11 grades lol. I literally went from grade 8, to grade 9, to grade 9; despite not actually failing grade 9. It was simply a different education system with a different curriculum (more compressed). but anyways... probably not all that relevant lol.

We could go back and forth all day long on what age is considered legal and able to make sound decisions. In this case, on paper the girl would be of legal age. It's all personal comfort if you ask me.

geoffellis wrote:

crystal wrote: Most people in my area are 18 when they graduated. I was. It's very common. Depending on the year of when they were born and when they started school, they could be 17 or even 19 when they graduated and never failed a grade.

How many grades/levels are there then? I had graduated at Grade 11, and the average age is 16 or 17 depending on birth date. Other parts of the country have 12 grades and would be finishing by 17-18. my life was very messed up though, and i ended up failing 1 grade, and redoing an additional grade... and my graduation ceremony was literally a week after my 19th birthday. It didnt help that i moved from a province that had 11 grades, to a province that had 12 grades, and then back to a province with 11 grades lol. I literally went from grade 8, to grade 9, to grade 9; despite not actually failing grade 9. It was simply a different education system with a different curriculum (more compressed). but anyways... probably not all that relevant lol.

Kindergarten up to 12th grade.

geoffellis wrote: Society has decided to hold 18 year olds culpable for their decisions. Should we raise that to 25 simply because they arent fully developed? If a 22 year old kills his father do you really think he should be treated as minor simply because his brain and decision making skills havent fully developed? Should it be illegal for a 22 year old to have sexual relations with a 26 year old for the same reasons? Should a 24 year old couple making a sex tape (of themselves) be charged with creating child porn?

The fact is that 18 year olds, and 20 year olds, and 22 year olds... are all capable of making sound decisions. Just because your brain scans and science says the brain hasnt FULLY developed, does not mean that the brain is UNDEVELOPED. The decision making process is present and available.

I do wonder though... if an 18 year old male had asked for some nude modelling to be done... would this conversation have even come up. Some how i dont think so.

You are extrapolating all kinds of things out from the information I gave to things I did not say nor imply. I'm just saying, when I make decisions about my dealings with teenagers, I would consider more than just legalities. The law is hopelessly overbearing in some cases, and hopelessly underbearing in others and everything in between. It is not a proper moral compass.

Society has decided? Nobody asked me.

America is all messed up with ages anyway. Killing (military) and marrying and tattoos and porn and smoking cigarettes at 18, drinking and getting a hotel room at 21 (I could have gotten stranded in Atlanta during a hurricane if the cashier hadn't of wink wink nudge nudged that I was old enough when I was 18), renting a car at 25, and smoking pot "never". Seems all kinds of out of whack to me.

Though I guess I didn't bother to ask where the OP is from. I just assumed...

Hi...Apologies if this is not the right area... We are a married couple Lisa 39 Mark 59 in Las Vegas. Hubby wants me to do a boudoir shoot and I want to too!  Can you please help us fin a photographer for this?Thank you!Lisa

You might want to post an add on your local Craigslist, honestly i would be very careful who you invite to your home for these sort of photos.  I would make sure they have studio and have your husband with you.  

I am interviewing a few but hubby will decide who does it. Hubby will be with me so I feel safe.