All right, politics and religion all in one thread -- time to sit back and watch the fireworks show!
Seriously though, I don't think the way this photographer handled the situation was necessarily the most effective way to try and evangelize. I'm all for sharing your faith with someone who's open to listening, but this probably wasn't that type of situation -- in fact business interactions probably aren't, most of the time.
All that said, I don't think the government or courts should be involved in this matter at all. Let the two parties handle their dispute and exercise their freedom of speech -- the client could have also done a lot by spreading the word about how unhappy they were with the photographer.
Keep this civil and friendly guys. Be objective. This touches multiple touchy subjects.
When the last candle has been blown out
and the last glass of champagne has been drunk
All that you are left with are the memories and the images-David Cooke.
Gene.Culley wrote: What ever happened for "Pro Choice"? They have those signs dancing around town for everything else. What stops that from applying here?
+1 Agree
I think what this is, is just greed to take advantage of the system. There's always a first. Years ago, McDonalds got sued from someone who spilled coffee on themselves and felt it was McDonalds neglect that they didn't warn them that the coffee was hot. Recently Match.com is getting sued $10 Million because a woman unfortunately was cut up from a date she met on Match and is filing a suit saying Match should have warned her there could be bad people there. If you look at these cases, what do they all have in common? Greed and a new legal line stepped over.
Stealthy Ninja wrote: Ever heard of the great commission?
I think the main reason why is we care if you go to hell.
Also some people are just jerks. Atheists can be equally annoying.
At the risk of derailing this thread, I'll say "yes, yes, I have." But it's not clear that our commission equates to uninvited, alienating diatribes at the drop of a hat. At least, that's the way I see it. It's not my job to force Jesus upon someone (because I can't). It's my job to manage my walk as a believer in humility and submission.
At least, that's how I understand it.
And you're right. People are, sadly, people. That's not always a good thing.
Well here is the deal with the idea that they were preaching to them. Lets say all the photographer said to them my Lord and Savior Jesus will not allow me to do it sorry. Some people react to this as this couple has, I have seen some get violent over such a statement.
But the real point is that this couple has zero right to anything they want. Whether this is a particular photographer, a church, or a venue to hold their reception at. This is all because this is all a matter of the rights of each private individual to choose who they serve in the business. But some in our society, and this couple sounds like them, think that they have a right to get what they want, even if it offends someones belief, or moral position. They believe in forced acceptance, which in my opinion will make people dig in their heels more to oppose them. You can just look at what forced acceptance has done to this country, in that it is more divided than ever before. Personally I see the couple as attention whores.
Stealthy Ninja wrote: Ever heard of the great commission?
I think the main reason why is we care if you go to hell.
Also some people are just jerks. Atheists can be equally annoying.
At the risk of derailing this thread, I'll say "yes, yes, I have." But it's not clear that our commission equates to uninvited, alienating diatribes at the drop of a hat. At least, that's the way I see it. It's not my job to force Jesus upon someone (because I can't). It's my job to manage my walk as a believer in humility and submission.
At least, that's how I understand it.
And you're right. People are, sadly, people. That's not always a good thing.
Well here is the deal with the idea that they were preaching to them. Lets say all the photographer said to them my Lord and Savior Jesus will not allow me to do it sorry. Some people react to this as this couple has, I have seen some get violent over such a statement.
But the real point is that this couple has zero right to anything they want. Whether this is a particular photographer, a church, or a venue to hold their reception at. This is all because this is all a matter of the rights of each private individual to choose who they serve in the business. But some in our society, and this couple sounds like them, think that they have a right to get what they want, even if it offends someones belief, or moral position. They believe in forced acceptance, which in my opinion will make people dig in their heels more to oppose them. You can just look at what forced acceptance has done to this country, in that it is more divided than ever before. Personally I see the couple as attention whores.
It's not so much being greedy, and more a fact that they are persecuted daily and this is one more thing on their plate. The lawsuit is extreme, and I think anyone should have the right to deny business for their own reasons. But NOT because "My lord and saviour will not allow me to do it" because our Lord and Saviour asks exactly the opposite of people. That is not an expression of love, it's an expression of hate, and the gay community deals with way too much unnecessary hate.
If you choose to be prejudiced and refuse to accept gay people for what they are (human beings, living the same life on the same earth, with different programmed preferences), then instead of filling your answer with hate and disdain, apologize to them, tell them that YOU are personally uncomfortable with that particular situation because you are unfamiliar with that world, and kindly request that they find someone more suitable.
It's wrong for a photographer to turn a couple down simply because they're gay. That's like me refusing to get to know any of you and telling me I don't want to talk to you anymore because you're American.
It's also wrong to turn that sort of answer into a war, and try to remove the photographer's rights the same way they tried to remove the gay person's rights.
This whole eye-for-an-eye thing never worked out well.
Leilanee wrote: It's wrong for a photographer to turn a couple down simply because they're gay. That's like me refusing to get to know any of you and telling me I don't want to talk to you anymore because you're American.
It's also wrong to turn that sort of answer into a war, and try to remove the photographer's rights the same way they tried to remove the gay person's rights.
Ummm no! I can reply to anyone as I wish this is what in the US is called Freedom of Speech, or my First Amendment right, and not the yelling fire in a crowded theater does not apply. I am in no way judging them, but I also do not have to do the work for them. And contrary to Political Correctness I do not have to sugar coat it for them, be nice, or be accepting of their lifestyle. This is what is called the real world, and not the touchy-feely little world where life is perfect, and everyone is accepted. Again welcome to the real world, and is it not quite hypocritical that this couple is not more accepting of the photographers belief? Oh thats right acceptance only applies to some people and not others.
My sisters kid is gay, and although I don't understand their live style or agree with it. It's their choice and also I believe as business professionals we should have the right to accept who ever we want to work with too. There should be no right or wrong, it's your choice.
Leilanee wrote: It's wrong for a photographer to turn a couple down simply because they're gay. That's like me refusing to get to know any of you and telling me I don't want to talk to you anymore because you're American.
It's also wrong to turn that sort of answer into a war, and try to remove the photographer's rights the same way they tried to remove the gay person's rights.
Ummm no! I can reply to anyone as I wish this is what in the US is called Freedom of Speech, or my First Amendment right, and not the yelling fire in a crowded theater does not apply. I am in no way judging them, but I also do not have to do the work for them. And contrary to Political Correctness I do not have to sugar coat it for them, be nice, or be accepting of their lifestyle. This is what is called the real world, and not the touchy-feely little world where life is perfect, and everyone is accepted. Again welcome to the real world, and is it not quite hypocritical that this couple is not more accepting of the photographers belief? Oh thats right acceptance only applies to some people and not others.
This is where the grey area is in the laws now. If you own your business, it's a private entity and should be able to follow that logic. But the courts are against that now, so it's a weird place in american history.
When the last candle has been blown out
and the last glass of champagne has been drunk
All that you are left with are the memories and the images-David Cooke.
Leilanee wrote: It's wrong for a photographer to turn a couple down simply because they're gay. That's like me refusing to get to know any of you and telling me I don't want to talk to you anymore because you're American.
It's also wrong to turn that sort of answer into a war, and try to remove the photographer's rights the same way they tried to remove the gay person's rights.
Ummm no! I can reply to anyone as I wish this is what in the US is called Freedom of Speech, or my First Amendment right, and not the yelling fire in a crowded theater does not apply. I am in no way judging them, but I also do not have to do the work for them. And contrary to Political Correctness I do not have to sugar coat it for them, be nice, or be accepting of their lifestyle. This is what is called the real world, and not the touchy-feely little world where life is perfect, and everyone is accepted. Again welcome to the real world, and is it not quite hypocritical that this couple is not more accepting of the photographers belief? Oh thats right acceptance only applies to some people and not others.
This is where the grey area is in the laws now. If you own your business, it's a private entity and should be able to follow that logic. But the courts are against that now, so it's a weird place in american history.
Well there are no gray areas. Law is B&W it is either a law or it is not, and in this case it is not. Aside from employment and housing there is no set law that states businesses must serve everyone. Now if you know the actual code that states otherwise point it out.
For those who are mentioning the McDonalds coffee lawsuit, I wonder if they are also aware that the coffee was so hot that it fused the woman's labia together, caused third degree burns on six percent of her body, and resulted in multiple skin grafts. McDonalds at that point had already received upwards of 700 customer complaints about their established coffee temperatures that caused burns - complaints they were ignoring.
In addition, the woman originally requested only her medical bills covered and McDonalds fought her tooth and nail to the point where they were put in front of a judge and jury that ruled against them.
Are you telling me that a company who has repeatedly ignored customer complaints about a dangerous practice of theirs, and is then sued by a woman who was found 20% at fault, that it's a frivolous lawsuit?
Why does everyone just automatically assume that because you own your business that you get to do whatever you want? You don't. This isn't a Freedom of Speech issue, freedom of speech doesn't protect against discrimination or hate speech. If I'm a store owner can I refuse to serve black people? Can I refuse to hire women? No, that's why we have the Federal Civil Rights Act, because it protects against those things. Sexual orientation just isn't part of that. Yet.
But that is where it's going.
It astounds me that if I refuse service to someone of color or religion people are shocked, shocked! That's terrible! But gay people? No no, absolutely not! That's against my religion.
The only different is that sexual orientation does not currently have legal protection like gender, race, and religion do. It's still discrimination.
The Canon EOS R100 is an entry-level mirrorless camera introduced in 2023. But just because it’s an entry-level camera doesn’t mean it’s a bare-bones camera. Find out why in this review!
Nikon’s retro-looking Nikon Zfc is anything but retro. Under its classic body is a host of features and amenities that make it a worthwhile compact mirrorless camera for 2024.
The Canon EOS R50 is one of the newest R-system cameras from Canon. Is it worth your money? Find out all the details you need to know in this comprehensive review.
The Sony FE 70-200mm f/2.8 GM OSS II is Sony’s flagship mirrorless zoom lens. As such, it’s loaded with features and has a top-shelf build quality that makes it a top pick!
Creating impactful photos of landscapes depends on many factors, not the least of which is your talent behind the lens. This guide explores other elements required for the best product.
The Canon EOS R100 is an entry-level mirrorless camera introduced in 2023. But just because it’s an entry-level camera doesn’t mean it’s a bare-bones camera. Find out why in this review!
The Olympus OM-D E-M10 Mark IV is a micro four thirds camera released in 2020. It’s an entry-level system along with the OM-D E-M5 Mark III. Use this guide to determine which one is best for you!
Blue hour photography might not be as well known as golden hour photography, but it is every bit as good a time to create epic images of landscapes. Learn how in this quick tutorial!
Nikon’s retro-looking Nikon Zfc is anything but retro. Under its classic body is a host of features and amenities that make it a worthwhile compact mirrorless camera for 2024.
Moving from taking snapshots of your dog to creating beautiful images doesn’t have to be that difficult! Use the tips outlined in this dog photography guide, and you’ll get better results in no time.
Acrylic print photos are a beautiful way to display your favorite images. But they don’t come without some questions. Get all the answers you need about this medium in this guide!
