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F-stop and sensor size


5 years 2 months ago #632640 by Piechura
I was wondering if there was any formula that tells you how bright the same f-stop would be on different sensor sizes. For example, I know that f4 on a full frame sensor should deliver a brighter image than f4 on a micro four-thirds sensor, all other settings being the same. But with that in mind, what f-stop would I need on the micro four-thirds to make it the equivalent brightness as f4 on a full frame? Is it something that can simply be determined by the sensor size or is there more to it than that?
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5 years 2 months ago #632643 by spudalicious
Hi  Piechura .   Sensor sizes and equivalence have generated a massive amount of online discussion.  And there is math involved.   Most of it is way over my head but, in the real world, there is this...

I shoot mainly on the M43 sensor size.   For my purposes, I've never seen a noticeable difference.   Let's say I have a 35mm 2.8 lens.   When I put that lens on my Olympus the amount of light that reaches my M43 sensor @ F/2.8 is the same as the amount of light that would hit my sensor if I were to put that same lens in front of a FF sensor.    I'm merely only using the cropped portion of what comes through the lens.

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Where you will absolutely notice a difference is in DOF.   At F/8 on my M43 I can expect (roughly) the same DOF as would be seen @ F/16 on a full frame sensor camera.  However, the light coming in (in practical use) is the same for both sensors.

I hope I didn't confuse more than help.   I'm not that great at this sort of thing.
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5 years 2 months ago #632652 by garyrhook
Brightness? That won't change. As stated above, DoF will change, which a larger pixel (circle of confusion) working towards a more shallow depth of field.

But light is light, and an aperture measurement is based on geometry. I don't think the number of photons that land on a given area of sensor is affected by that.

I could be wrong.
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5 years 2 months ago #632659 by Shadowfixer1
f-4 is f-4 no matter what size sensor. If you buy the most expensive light meter available you won't find a setting for sensor size. Like Gary said, the DOF will change but f-stop and shutter speed are the same across the board from 4/3's cameras to medium and large format. Some manufacturers calibrate a little differently but theoretically they should be the same. 
www.betterphoto.com/?ramshots
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5 years 2 months ago #632660 by Nikon Shooter
In the example of the image, there will be a light metering
difference. The difference will be related to the proportion
of mountain in the frame vs the less sky. I don't know of a
formula to work with.

Formulae — like equations — will permit to predict, reprodu-
ce, a result in given conditions. It is challenging to come to
such predictions where too many changing variables in an
unstable system happen at the same time.
Light is free… capturing it is not!
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5 years 2 months ago #632784 by Piechura
So when people recommend full frame for low light photography, they're talking about other settings that make them preferable? Like larger pixels and more usable ISO?

My real world question therefore is if you had a full frame camera with a 24-70mm f4 lens and a micro four thirds camera with a 12-35mm f2.8, and you put all of the settings the same (with the equivalent focal length taking into account the crop factor) but both lenses wide open, the micro four-thirds camera should take a picture that's twice as bright?

I know that neither of those lenses would be particularly amazing for low light photography, it's just for comparison purposes.

One thing my current camera really struggles with is taking a crisp image of anything moving at night. But I think that's more down to the lack of usable ISO than anything else.
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5 years 2 months ago - 5 years 2 months ago #632785 by spudalicious
Yep.  You got it.  Larger sensors have less ISO noise.   

You are correct.   if you shot f/4 on a full frame and f/2.8 on m43  the m43 image would be brighter. assuming everything else is equal (and focal length accounted for)  Different strokes for different folks but, I usually try not to exceed 1600 iso on my older olympus.  Sometimes I may push it up to 3200 if I plan on doing some sort of post processing averaging.  

Most often, If I am struggling with getting low light shots of moving objects in focus, it is because my shutter speed is too slow.  I get bit in the butt on that one from time to time. 
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5 years 2 months ago #632787 by Nikon Shooter

Piechura wrote: …other settings that make them preferable? Like larger pixels and more usable ISO?


Of my four cameras, the D3S is my go to tool when it comes
to low light; with "only" 12 MP in a full size sensor, it is still un-
beatable today. Progresses make possible better low light cap-
tures and brilliant converters will improve their renditions but
not yet at the level of quality of that single digit body.
Light is free… capturing it is not!
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5 years 2 months ago #632789 by garyrhook
For those that are interested...

Not that I'm an F-stoppers fan, but this article has photos that make it pretty clear re: the above assertion.

fstoppers.com/gear/nikon-d4-vs-d3s-d3-an...3s-wins-updated-6245

There's something to be said for fatter pixels.
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5 years 2 months ago #632795 by Piechura
Yeah I know the Sony A7S is famous for its low light performance too because it's got so few megapixels on a full-sized sensor.
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5 years 2 months ago #632804 by Nikon Shooter
—  …re: the above assertion.

I owned and operated the D3S and D3X since 2011. I got lot more tests
and shoots performed and shares my experiences.

It is easy to question anything with resources that can't be controlled.
I know that the camera you don't have, nor the experience.
Light is free… capturing it is not!
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5 years 2 months ago #632807 by garyrhook

Nikon Shooter wrote: —  …re: the above assertion.

I owned and operated the D3S and D3X since 2011. I got lot more tests
and shoots performed and shares my experiences.

It is easy to question anything with resources that can't be controlled.
I know that the camera you don't have, nor the experience.


I have no idea what that means, unless you're just trying to assert how much of an expert you are. Which, frankly, coemes across as arrogant.

The article AGREES with you that the D3s is a superior to those against which it was compared. In other words, I found another source to support and corroborate your claim.

But I guess you don't need confirmation from anyone but yourself?
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5 years 2 months ago #632809 by Nikon Shooter
If so, I apologies sincerely…
  1. to have misunderstood your post
  2. not to have your level of English to express my self as in French
As the said arrogance goes, I can't do much about it because if you
receive it as such, it was never the way it was meant and sent.

Yes, I do have some experience and some expertise. I have good fun
to share some of it with the members of our forum but I'm not here
to aggress anyone… not even passively.
Again, sorry for the misunderstanding.
Light is free… capturing it is not!
Photo Comments
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5 years 2 months ago #632812 by GaryA

Nikon Shooter wrote: If so, I apologies sincerely…

  1. to have misunderstood your post
  2. not to have your level of English to express my self as in French
As the said arrogance goes, I can't do much about it because if you
receive it as such, it was never the way it was meant and sent.

Yes, I do have some experience and some expertise. I have good fun
to share some of it with the members of our forum but I'm not here
to aggress anyone… not even passively.
Again, sorry for the misunderstanding.


Aha !  Francais est votre langue maternelle.
There are photographs everywhere. It is the call of photographers to see and capture those images.
www: garyayala.com
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5 years 2 months ago #632815 by Nikon Shooter

GaryA wrote: Aha !  Francais est votre langue maternelle.


Oui, le Français est ma langue. Les contributions faites
à ce forum sont traduites par google translate avec tous
les aléas possibles que ça peut contenir.

Allez… cheers Gary! :P
Light is free… capturing it is not!
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