Should I go full frame?

Troponin wrote: I basically misspoke and tried to delete/edit the post when I realized I had. The edit option times out, unfortunately. 

That's not the part I didn't understand.

Troponin wrote: I basically misspoke and tried to delete/edit the post when I realized I had. The edit option times out, unfortunately. 

Well, luckily for you, there are plenty of people on the internet that are willing to straighten you out.

Shadowfixer1 wrote: That's not the part I didn't understand.

full frame lenses on a crop sensor is not normally a great idea. IQ suffers and effective mp is decreased in the process., hence why sharpness is usually lost. Telephoto lenses will increase in aperture more so and cause a greater loss of light. 

A lot of people that try to go that route end up disappointed. 

Troponin wrote:

Shadowfixer1 wrote: That's not the part I didn't understand.

full frame lenses on a crop sensor is not normally a great idea. IQ suffers and effective mp is decreased in the process., hence why sharpness is usually lost. Telephoto lenses will increase in aperture more so and cause a greater loss of light. 

A lot of people that try to go that route end up disappointed. 

Not sure where you learned that from but if that is what you believe, then carry on.

Shadowfixer1 wrote: Not sure where you learned that from….

Me neither… and I dare propose this is totally none sensical!

Just for thoughts…
the D500 has the same pixel density then the D850!

Shadowfixer1 wrote:

Troponin wrote:

Shadowfixer1 wrote: That's not the part I didn't understand.

full frame lenses on a crop sensor is not normally a great idea. IQ suffers and effective mp is decreased in the process., hence why sharpness is usually lost. Telephoto lenses will increase in aperture more so and cause a greater loss of light. 

A lot of people that try to go that route end up disappointed. 

Not sure where you learned that from but if that is what you believe, then carry on.

A full frame lens with a crop sensor changes the angle of view  from lens to sensor, therefore resulting a change in megapixels. This can lead to images that do not appear as sharp. A 20mp sensor can end up at 7mp. There are equations that can be used to figure this out, however, I have yet to look at them closely because I simply don't care quite that much 

 Honestly, if you have something you can teach me,  I am always willing to listen and learn.  You first called me out on the subject, and I was OK with it.  However, I prefer intellectual conversation over sarcasm and cheap shots.

Troponin wrote:

Shadowfixer1 wrote:

Troponin wrote:

Shadowfixer1 wrote: That's not the part I didn't understand.

full frame lenses on a crop sensor is not normally a great idea. IQ suffers and effective mp is decreased in the process., hence why sharpness is usually lost. Telephoto lenses will increase in aperture more so and cause a greater loss of light. 

A lot of people that try to go that route end up disappointed. 

Not sure where you learned that from but if that is what you believe, then carry on.

A full frame lens with a crop sensor changes the angle of view  from lens to sensor, (No it doesn't) therefore resulting a change in megapixels. This can lead to images that do not appear as sharp. A 20mp sensor can end up at 7mp. There are equations that can be used to figure this out, however, I have yet to look at them closely because I simply don't care quite that much 

 Honestly, if you have something you can teach me,  I am always willing to listen and learn.  You first called me out on the subject, and I was OK with it.  However, I prefer intellectual conversation over sarcasm and cheap shots.

I wasn't being sarcastic or taking a cheap shot. Sorry you took it that way. I just don't think you are correct in your thinking, that's all. I base most of my theory from practice. One other thing. The angle of view of the projected image doesn't change out of the rear of the lens. That is physics. The angle of view captured is different but the projected image is the same. The lens has no idea what type of sensor or even film is behind it. It doesn't care. The image captured by a cropped sensor of the same pixel pitch is the same as if you went in and taped off the sensor on the full frame. No difference. The fact that the crop sensor uses only the part of the image coming through the center portion or sweet spot means it gets the best part of the image projected. Like I said, if you want to believe what you want to believe, then carry on. I'm not trying to change YOUR mind but I just want to provide others with information for them to consider.     

Troponin wrote: A full frame lens with a crop sensor changes the angle of view  from lens to sensor, therefore resulting a change in megapixels. This can lead to images that do not appear as sharp. A 20mp sensor can end up at 7mp. There are equations that can be used to figure this out, however, I have yet to look at them closely because I simply don't care quite that much 

 Honestly, if you have something you can teach me,  I am always willing to listen and learn.  You first called me out on the subject, and I was OK with it.  However, I prefer intellectual conversation over sarcasm and cheap shots.

It's good to be teachable, right? I know I like to be.

By way of example, my D750 is a 24MP sensor. In DX mode it's (roughly) 16MP. That gives it the same pixel resolution and density of the D5100 I used before the D750. So a crop sensor lens wouldn't be detrimental on my camera, and in fact the camera would outperform the old model since it's newer/bigger/better/faster/stronger/wehavethetechnology (pop culture reference...).

So I don't think we can discount the use of certain lenses on certain bodies as an unequivicable rule. We can, on a case by case basis, decide what does or does not work, or work well. Don't you think? Yes, the angle of view changes, but that might not be a bad thing in general.

I realize you shoot Sony; us Nikon folks have a different view of the things because of possible differing design points. Not a statement of quality, it's just an observation. I don't know enough about the Sony product line to have an opinion, only that I can tell you what's possible under certain circumstances.

I did a quick search on YouTube to show what I’m referring to. Yes, it’s Northrup, whom a couple of you don’t care for, but ignore that and listen to the reasoning and math. Let me know what your thoughts are. 

https://youtu.be/YDbUIfB5YUc

I made a slight error. The angle of view captured does change but the angle of coverage does not change. I considered the angle of coverage to be the angle of view. Technically it isn't but it's still the same image projected out of the rear of the lens. Whatever you want to call it. You are just capturing a portion of the same image on a crop sensor.

Troponin wrote: I did a quick search on YouTube to show what I’m referring to. Yes, it’s Northrup, whom a couple of you don’t care for, but ignore that and listen to the reasoning and math. Let me know what your thoughts are. 

https://youtu.be/YDbUIfB5YUc

Watched that when he came out with it. There are a ton of people who think he is way off base on this subject. I'm not trying to convince anyone. The projected image is the same out of the lens. If the pixel pitch is the same on both sensors, it will not change the information gathered. That's my opinion. Anyway, I apologize for ruffling feathers. It's not worth that. I will bow out and be on my way.

Shadowfixer1 wrote: There are a ton of people who think he is way off base on this subject.

… and I am among them!

Shadowfixer1 wrote:

Troponin wrote: I did a quick search on YouTube to show what I’m referring to. Yes, it’s Northrup, whom a couple of you don’t care for, but ignore that and listen to the reasoning and math. Let me know what your thoughts are. 

https://youtu.be/YDbUIfB5YUc

Watched that when he came out with it. There are a ton of people who think he is way off base on this subject. I'm not trying to convince anyone. The projected image is the same out of the lens. If the pixel pitch is the same on both sensors, it will not change the information gathered. That's my opinion. Anyway, I apologize for ruffling feathers. It's not worth that. I will bow out and be on my way.

Well, it has certainly challenged my knowledge of the subject. I’ll try to see if I can find anything from a source that has an explanation or perhaps debunks this.

Watch this. Ken is a little out there but he is pretty dang smart when it comes to gear. 

Sorry folks for confusing some terms yesterday. I will try to explain why I feel the way I do about this sharpness issue in simple terms that my simple mind can grasp. Number one is if you look on the top of your camera you will see a circle with a line through it. That is what some call the film plane. Some call it the focus plane, focal plane or plane of focus. This is the exact distance from the lens where the lens, when focused, projects the sharpest image. Now let's say we build our own special camera in which we can swap media. We pick say a 105mm lens and mount it on our camera body. We focus our lens so the image at the focal plane is the sharpest it can be. We now slide in piece of 35mm Velvia film and expose it. That's great but we want to see the image now, not later. So we remove the film holder and slide a full frame sensor in it's place. We don't change anything else and we capture the image. It's the same, right? The projected image has not changed. Now we say, let's try a DX crop sensor. We slide out the full frame and slide in the crop sensor. We don't touch anything with the lens. It is still projecting a nice sharp image onto our focal plane, Now I need Tony or anybody else convince me that some how the image projected onto the focal plane is not as sharp as before. The fact is the sharpness has not changed because it's the exact same image being projected. The difference is the crop sensor is only capturing a smaller portion of the exact same projected image. How can that make the lens less sharp? Let's go crazy and slide in a M43 sensor. Does the lens project a less sharp image. Nope. It's the exact same image, so how can changing the sensor make the lens less sharp? It doesn't. In fact it captures the best of the projected image because we all know the image gets blurrier the further away from the center you go. That is why there is so much discussion on edge sharpness when it comes to lenses. One more thing. We set our camera to ISO 100, 1/125 sec. at f-8.0 for exposure. Does the brightness of the projected image change as we were swapping sensors. No, it doesn't. So can we gather from this that f-8 is f-8 for all lenses? Yes, we can. Did the DOF change for the lens? No, it didn't. DOF changes on crop sensors because you change the distance to the subject to get the same composition. That is why DOF changes on crop sensors. It's the distance, not the f-stop or lens. This is my story and I'm sticking to it, unless somebody can convince me otherwise.